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  • Restoration or Preservation?

    Seeing all these amazingly original old Greeves from Australia on the forum recently has prompted me to think about the age old question...whether to 'restore' or whether to 'preserve'?

    When a bike is in such an original and 'unmolested' condition, it seems a shame to remove (destroy?) all that lovely 'patina', honestly earned in the course of an eventful (and sometimes hard!) life. After all, they can only be 'original' once!

    Whilst there is no denying the attraction and appeal of a beautifully restored Greeves (they look so good when they've been done 'right') for myself, a lovingly preserved and well used example equally has it's own charms as well. It's interesting to see the sort of prices people are willing to pay in the auctions these days for the original 'patinated' (?) machines, which supports the notion that these bikes are indeed much sought after and highly prized in their own right.

    Of course, some bikes are so 'far gone' that the only recourse is a full restoration. But I sometimes wonder if we are seeing a move away from the 'shiny' bikes perhaps, and a trend towards well preserved 'originality'?

    Of course, another view is that these bikes are ideal for actually riding, and in all weathers too! Many owners speak of the increased levels of enjoyment they get out of their bikes when there are no concerns with scratching expensive paint and chrome. It does seem a shame to me personally when I hear someone say something along the lines of 'it turned out so nice it's too good to use in anger'.

    I fully acknowledge and appreciate that for some owners the pleasure comes from other interests as their riding days are sadly behind them, and it's always a treat to see those beautifully restored machines at the shows. The 'show bikes' do a wonderful job without a doubt, in raising awareness and interest in our wonderful motorcycling heritage. Then there are the 'historic' bikes, priceless and important peices of real history, but are they the same thing when all those dabs of scrutineers paint have been powdercoated over? I know that some feel that they become in a way 'replicas' of what they are 'supposed' to be. Then there are the increasing examples of 'fakery' coming up, where bikes have been given an 'artificial' patina! This has been happening for some years in the classic guitar world, with highly skilled (but unscrupulous) restorers turning their hands to 'unrestoration' techniques in an effort to make money...When a 'good' 1959 Gibson 'Les Paul' Sunburst can fetch way upwards of £60,000 () these days you can see why it happens....

    In any event, I feel that what anyone decides to do with their machine is of course completely up to them, and may it always be so! I just thought it might be an interesting debate to air on the forum and see what other members think about it....

    Any takers?

    Brian.
    Last edited by Brian Thompson; 27/05/2010, 10:13 PM.

  • #2
    Some good & relevant points there Brian, trouble is as prices (even for basket cases) are going through the roof & we are seen more "speculators & investors" buying up bikes the time will come when our bikes are all to priceless to ride. It would be interesting to know how many Greeves owners actually ride their bikes. I realise that with the nature of the beast, mainly competition it is not practical to ride some models (scramblers & road racers) on the road. I totally agree about the 'replica' scenerio but trouble is that with the exception of a few bikes which have been regularly ridden & maintained the majority now are 'barn & shed finds' in basket case condition.
    Not exactly how we would like to remember them.

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    • #3
      I have to say I enjoy riding my East Coaster but not in the rain gone are the days I would ride in any weather after all it has to be fun.

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      • #4
        Restoration or Preservation?

        Thanks for those interesting contribution chaps, just the job!

        Does anyone else have any views or opinions they'd like to add?

        Brian.

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        • #5
          Many factors apply here.

          How many owners feel that they are physically capable of using the machine as it was intended. I certainly know people who enjoy rebuilding bikes but due to age and infirmity are no longer able, or willing, to ride them in anger.

          How many suitable events for original machines.

          Is a highly modified machine still a Greeves ?

          How many folks have more than one machine and only use one, keeping the rest for show.

          Personally I believe that a machine is to be ridden, and having only got my machine back together last year it has already been thrashed in a few events. But it takes it toll on both body and machine.

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          • #6
            Restoration or Preservation?

            Thanks John (G), some really interesting and thoughtful observations there.

            Your approach sounds similar to my own, i.e. go through the bike (rebuild/restore) and then use it as intended. But then, as you rightly point out, some of us are still lucky enough to be able to consider riding them once they've been done.

            As you say, there are indeed many factors involved here, and maybe some of your points could be developed into new threads of their own. Lets run with it though, and see what other members come up with.

            So, restoration or preservation? Any more views out there?
            Last edited by Brian Thompson; 07/06/2010, 03:43 PM.

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            • #7
              Restoration or preservation?

              I agree with John W. We find ourselves back in the 1985 watershed, when British bikes ceased to be 'just old bikes' and became 'investment opportunities'. The top types, Goldies, Vincents, Thruxton Velos, Bonnevilles, RGS, CSR, etc., were soon bought up for rapidly increasing sums. Many were totally rebuilt with (then) still available original parts, and dissapeared into private and never seen collections, "Hedge Funds" I believe they were called.
              The Shows back then were frenetic affairs as investors fought to gain the top 30% of the available machines. The rest were looked on as 'Grey Porridge'. (Esp anything Villiers powered!). The GRA were lucky in that whole bikes could be easily and cheaply obtained, (Ask Pete Smith about the £60 Greeves), but soon even these became sought after with ridiculous prices being asked for very poor examples. I went to see many for Club members, and in most cases had to dissapoint them. Except for the one who rescued an old field bike which was the remains of a Silverstone! (£2,000 at auction with knobblies!)
              To keep 'as original' is fine, if that's what YOUwant, and it helps others to see what was what. But 1950's technology is often counterproductive in modern use. The springloaded pin connecting the HT lead onto the Ignition Coil set up being a good example. In 1971, if ever my first Greeves suffered water ingress, even rain, this was the first
              casualty and no sparks. Both my Greeves now have remote coil ignition, other than the lack of the HT lead from the front of the stator plate, the engine looks normal.
              In the end, its what the owner wants the bike for. However, the retention of the machine as a unit is the ultimate benefit to others now and in years to come. After all, without this practise Museums wouldn't exist.

              (On this last, there's an odd Greeves in Coventry Transport Museum, I'm trying to sort out what it started life as.)

              Ok, thats my bit.

              Peter R.

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              • #8
                Restoration or preservation?

                Thanks for chipping in Peter. Once again, some insightful and interesting views there to add to the debate.

                Interestingly, in the latest issue of 'Classic Bike Magazine' (#365, pp12.) there is an article covering the ever spiralling prices of classic bikes, and it's well worth grabbing a copy. To give an example, in 1980 £500 would have bagged a 1962 BSA Gold Flash, whilst this year a restored example fetched £4500, a 900% rise....Food for thought indeed, and for what would have probably been seen as a 'cooking'/'bread and butter' model in it's day.

                The same thing is now happening to the classic 'Jap' market too, with similar price rises happening. This is also fuelled by the gradual 'drying up' of 'factory' spares for these machines as they are restored, meaning people are paying more for 'original' examples. One well known classic dealer reports rising prices causing difficulties in buying stock, but feels that prices may peak soon after the 'boom' of the last three or four years.

                It's no wonder though, as classics do certainly appear to be 'recession proof', and there seems little shortage in terms of buyers. However, the barn/shed finds (and unrestored machines) seem to be appearing on the market less and less, but conversley rising prices are encouraging owners to spend more on restoring their bikes. This bodes well for the manufacture of replica parts, with some vendors reporting a 30% increase of business in recent times.

                With regard to 'modern' bikes, the weak pound and ever rising materials costs have hit the market hard in recent times. A new Yamaha R1 costs a staggering £14000 OTR these days, and with depreciation will probably be only worth around £8000 in a couple of years...

                So, it seems we are in a win win situation to a degree with 'our' bikes, but it seems that if you're in the market for a classic bike, sooner rather than later might be the order of the day!

                Maybe it's a case of restoration AND preservation then....!

                It's pleasing that this thread has attracted so many views, but so far only five of us have contributed any opinions! What do you say chaps, has anyone got anything they'd like to add? Whatever your point of view, we'd really like to hear from you!
                Last edited by Brian Thompson; 07/06/2010, 04:20 PM.

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                • #9
                  One make that is not 'recession proof' is the indian Royal Enfields. Why people still buy this outdated Indian crap beats me. OK when the Indian Enfields came onto the market they were cheap people bought them rode them till it broke then threw it away. But now with this so called eco engine they are no cheaper than a good basic jap commuter, & are still a 1950's design. I saw one of the 'gold star' customised ones this afternoon, clipons, racing seat, gold star exhaust. When it pulled away from the traffic lights donk donk donk it sounded like a 1940's sidevalve, and accellerated at the same snails pace as well. I would add (so as not to upset genuine classic british RE owners) that I have no problem with the genuine article & in fact if you can find one a good restored 1950's bullet would cost no more than its 2010 look alike, & maintain its value, & have free road tax as well.

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                  • #10
                    Everyone, very well said!

                    Hi guys!

                    OH...the age old question, aye?

                    We faced it with our "restore". We are lucky enough to still ride her, though not out flat desert racing...but, even with the Blooie Pipe it is legal in our state as long as you stay off county maintained roads.

                    We agonized over what type of restore we wanted to do. We got new fenders, amal carb, etc. All still in boxes, accept for seals, rings, and gaskets..oh yeah, and petcock (original leaked like a siv..LOL)

                    Some people said...get rid of the racing plate from 1970 (has a sticker for the District 37 American Motocross Community with that date), get rid of the sticker and tags for the off highway CA registration from 1983...if it isn't factory specs...why bother.

                    Some people said....keep the mikuni..it works, keep the modifications and aftermarket items, you know the bike was raced, and though he didn't win big...he was your average working man and he loved the bike...keep what is on it, and keep riding!

                    I am of the belief..as long as one is able too...BIKES WERE MADE (BORN) TO BE RIDDEN!! Honestly and truly, most riders got the bike, ran it and made modifications that suited their riding/racing...not that the original bike isn't great...am I making sense? That is a slice straight out of history!

                    Now, our Eleanor...the 1963 24MCS/2/808...she was a west coast dessert racer...I can only imagine the stories she could tell! Why mess with a good thing?? We hated (at the time, but are glad we did) that getting rid of the dents in the tank, the boot wear, etc...felt like we were erasing history...so we picked and chose...left the original modifications, aftermarket, and custom stuff....brought her back to how she looked the last race...but with fresh paint, repaired tank, etc.

                    Neither way is right or wrong...DO WHAT THE BIKE WANTS, THEY DO SPEAK TO YOU, YOU JUST HAVE TO LISTEN. All in all, make sure it's right for the bike...and I guess you too. If you do that, the rest will come!

                    I too must agree about the current market...it's a shame, seems people more money hungry than hungry for history or the love of a great era and bike.

                    Sorry to ramble...you guys know how a woman can gab, especially about something she is passionate about!

                    Great topic and responses,
                    Tammy

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                    • #11
                      That's another one done, as a friend of mine would say.

                      Hi Tammy!

                      Great to see you back, and thanks for your excellent and thoughtful contribution.

                      I loved your comment about 'let the bike speak to you'-a really nice way to put it and very much after my own heart! (As a ex hippy musician type I'm allowed to say that! )

                      I reckon the most important thing is to simply enjoy the bike, as you guys so obviously do. For people like us there is great joy in making an old Greeves 'happy' again, and at the end of the day surely that's what it's all about. If it looks right and feels right, it IS right!!!!

                      I'm so happy to know that your bike is so cherished and cared for. After all, we are not really owners, more stewards acting to preserve and enjoy these fine machines for the benefit of generations to come.

                      Just as it should be.

                      'Mr' Greeves would be very proud, I'm sure.

                      Brian.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brian Thompson View Post
                        Hi Tammy!

                        Great to see you back, and thanks for your excellent and thoughtful contribution.

                        I loved your comment about 'let the bike speak to you'-a really nice way to put it and very much after my own heart! (As a ex hippy musician type I'm allowed to say that! )

                        I reckon the most important thing is to simply enjoy the bike, as you guys so obviously do. For people like us there is great joy in making an old Greeves 'happy' again, and at the end of the day surely that's what it's all about. If it looks right and feels right, it IS right!!!!

                        I'm so happy to know that your bike is so cherished and cared for. After all, we are not really owners, more stewards acting to preserve and enjoy these fine machines for the benefit of generations to come.

                        Just as it should be.

                        'Mr' Greeves would be very proud, I'm sure.

                        Brian.
                        THANKS AGAIN BRIAN, I AM SOO HUMBLED, BUT LIKE TO THINK THE SAME!
                        I know The Greeves sure does beem constantly now, and nothing but good vibes from her! We (Eleanor and I) don't ride daily..specially with this broken ankle, but I sit with her for at least 20 minutes in the day...the highlight of my day, "our chat time"..so glad to know others do the same...bikes need listened to often, and I don't mean only while they are running...
                        Tammy
                        Last edited by tammyanddaveky; 06/08/2010, 08:28 PM.

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